AGI June GCA Live Discussion with AGI Students 6-8-22

AGI June GCA Live Discussion with AGI Students 6-8-22

Gene Kelly:

Hey, welcome to the AGI GCA Gunsmithing Club of America live. And hopefully, everybody’s getting their audio turned on. Down below, you’ll see we have a Q&A button. You’re going to have the opportunity to ask these panelists, who are all AGI gunsmithing students and gunsmiths, different questions. Now, we’re going to do a brief interview with each of them on the panel so you have an idea who they are. They have a variety of experience. Some people have been gunsmithing for a lot of years, and some are added more recently, but you should be able to get a lot of information out of this and get your questions answered. So if you have questions about gunsmithing in general that you want to ask these guys like what’s their favorite tool that they’re using for whatever project or how do they go about X or Y, feel free to use that Q&A box there to ask those questions. So I’m Gene Kelly, I’m president of American Gunsmithing Institute and the Gunsmithing Club of America. And our mission is to preserve the gunsmithing arts. And one of the ways we do that is through the Gunsmithing Club of America website, all the information on there, and meetings like this where we try and share whatever knowledge we have and answer questions and give you resources. So tonight we’re going to do exactly that. I’m going to go around and we’re going to start clockwise here on my screen with Randy Sherman. Randy is one of our gunsmithing students and a successful gunsmith. And Randy, I’m going to ask you three questions here. Number one, what were you doing before you got started in gunsmithing, and why did you want to become a gunsmith and you chose the AGI? That’s kind of one question overall. And then the next question would be, what’d you learn through your process of being an AGI student? And then, what are you doing now? So I’ll kind of remind you of those, but let’s start with the first one. What were you doing before you became an AGI student and what got you into gunsmithing and being an AGI student?

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. Well, I was doing the same thing I’m still doing now, to what I now lovingly refer to as my day job. But I’ve been through college and I’ve been working for a couple decades in human services and social work type of a thing and helping unfortunate people. But I just got to the point where I started looking at, “What am I going to do in retirement? What else can I do to augment my income? There’s got to be something else out there.” I was getting a little burned out in my career field, which I really am now, and I started thinking hard about it. And I’ve been kind of a Jack-of-all-trades before a couple of decades in human services, so I’ve worked with my hands. I’ve done carpentry, I’ve worked on rebuilding motors, all kinds of different things. So I had a lot of skill sets. And yeah, I’ve always had a love for guns and hunting and the Second Amendment. And so I thought that would be really cool to be able to do something along those lines. And I don’t really remember just where I found AGI, but I remember I was upset because you weren’t advertising like, “Here we are. We’re the best and you got to try us.” I think because you didn’t really need to advertise too much because you are the best. But I looked at all these… I won’t even mention the names of all these other places, but there were ones that I called and kind of interviewed them and they didn’t know anything. They couldn’t answer my questions. I said, “I’ll be darned if I’m going to go with these guys.” I remember one day sitting in my recliner in the front room and I came across something that looked too good to be true, and so I started checking into it and that was AGI. And I sat on the fence about probably a year, year and a half on it, and I got to know my advisor real well. She would call and she would make sure I was okay. We developed a relationship. She was really nice. And I finally decided I’m going to do it. And I was very fortunate that I found a way to finance the enhanced master course. And I took it on seriously and I studied and became a gunsmith. And that was now 10 years ago.

Gene Kelly:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. Yeah. I can’t believe where the time has gone. And the really cool part is I still got the course and yes, I still pop those DVDs in. Just like you said, how many notes can you take in class? And that’s what I thought about. In college, I’m a horrible note taker. I couldn’t listen and take notes at the same time. With the AGI course, I just pop it back in when I need it. And a lot those courses I have from you. I think you probably offered half of what I have now in the professional course that I’ve had to buy since because you didn’t have it then.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Yeah. You’ve added to it. So you’ve learned a lot through there. You already talked about that and I know that you will… Well, tell everybody what you’re going now and also tell them what part of the country because that came up earlier in our conversations.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. I live in beautiful Placerville, California, which is in the foothills right between Sacramento, California and Lake Tahoe, which everybody knows where that is, I think. Unfortunately, that’s in the middle of California. So don’t be worried about all the crap you’re hearing right now that’s going on because at worst, all we’re going to do is make you like California, which is still doable. Yeah, I’m still working at my chosen career field in my day job. Getting ready to retire as soon as I can here in about three years, and I’m going Arizona. I’ve already got the property. Cool thing is is when I visit my property down there, I get to know everybody real quick because I’ve got my gunsmithing logo and stuff on my truck. I literally can’t pull into a parking lot down there without people following me into the parking lot.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. So you’ve been successful in gunsmithing up there in Placerville. Tell everybody just a little bit about what you’re doing there.

Randy Sherman:

The gunsmithing part? Yeah, I’m very fortunate that I was able to fall in with a new brick-and-mortar that was opening up 10 years ago. They were going to charge me for some space in there to put up my shop and all that. They never have. Very quickly I figured out how much I was worth to their business, and they charge me a dollar a year so that I have a contract with them. And I have my insurance that takes care of everything there and all that. Basically, I’m just specialized in fix-and-repair. I’m known in the entire community, actually probably about three or four counties wide at least, as an excellent gunsmith. I also got an NRA banquet thing not very long ago. And our sheriff was talking to the sheriff that was in Sacramento who’s running for Congress now. And I mean, I’m walking past this dude. I know who they are, but the sheriff reaches around and grabs me, pulls me over and introduces me as the big gunsmith in town to this guy running for Congress and everything. And I know all these people because I’m a gunsmith.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. It’s magnetic, isn’t it? Yeah.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. Everybody wants to know the gunsmith. It’s amazing.

Gene Kelly:

There’s not enough of us that’s why. Too many guns out there. All right, Lorne.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. So why don’t you… Same kind of thing, just give everybody a little your previous background, how you got into gunsmithing, found AGI, what you learned and then what you’re doing now.

Lorne Cooper:

Sure. Well, I started AGI back last year and I just graduated in January from the enhanced master’s course. I work for an electrical contractor here. I’ve been doing that for gosh, going on 30 years now. Started as a field electrician and now I work in the office building the buildings on the computer and coordinating them before they build it. Just like Randy there, I’m planning to retiring about three years and go full-time. So I figured I’ll start now and get my feet wet and hopefully build up some clientele. AGI was the perfect thing for me to really smooth out all my rough edges. I’ve been working on all my own guns for over 20 years and building parts kit, FN FALs and mouthers and competition rifles. And I figured, “Hell, I might be able to make some money doing it.” And it’s something I love doing. So…

Gene Kelly:

Good deal. What part of the country are you in?

Lorne Cooper:

In Virginia, northern Virginia area. Have some property down in Lexington, Virginia that we’re planning to move to once I do retire.

Gene Kelly:

Whole lot of moving going on here.

Lorne Cooper:

Yes, sir.

Gene Kelly:

Alrighty. Well, hey Don, let’s go to you now. And Don, you’re in… I’ll just tell you, everybody, he’s in Kansas. And I’ve been asking him about whether or not he knows Dorothy. And he said, “Yes, they’ve got a place down the road.” But anyway, Don, you could tell them about that. And then also, what were you doing before and same questions.

Don Harden:

Well, I’ve had quite a few things in my past. After I got out of college, I farmed for about 20 years. And while I was farming, because of the farming techniques that I was wanting to use, I got into selling and some light manufacturing of equipment for fertilizer and chemical application. And I owned that business for about 20 years and then we were bought out. Then I worked for some other people in that industry and someone for a while. And I finally got a little tired of all that. And at some point in time, while I was doing that, I started cerakoting. And I learned pretty quickly that it was a lot that I needed to know as far as getting guns apart and getting them back together correctly, checking function to make sure things were not broken and so on. And when I started that, I think I was about 62. And I was on the phone with my hunting partner cousin and said something to him. I said, “Man, I wish I’d have gone to gunsmithing school when I was younger.” And he says, “Well, what’s keeping you from it?” And, “Well, I’m too old.” And he said, “No, you’re not.” He said, “You’re never too old.” And I said, “Well, yeah, you’re never too old to learn.” So anyway-

Gene Kelly:

Yeah, I like his attitude. That’s how I feel.

Don Harden:

Yeah. And long story short, I looked. Where I’m located, we’re about four and a half hours from Trinidad, Colorado, which is one of the big gunsmith training schools in the US. But I didn’t feel like I could take a couple of years and go over there and stay and go to school and so on. And I read a lot of the information that you had put out as well as a couple of the other online things. And like Randall, I just felt like that you guys pretty well had it going on. I made the phone call. Your advisor was great. We talked about where I needed to be and so on and so forth. I have a background in welding and machining and so on and so forth, so I did the pro course. And like Randy said, stuff comes in, sometimes you got to break out a video and review it because-

Gene Kelly:

Because you can’t remember all of it. Yeah.

Don Harden:

Yeah. And that was 11 years ago when I started. And I’ve tinkered with guns ever since I was a kid. My dad taught me early. I had to take them apart and clean them and so on. And it’s always something I was interested in. And I’m fully retired now, so gunsmithing is all I do, gunsmithing and cerakoting. And I wish I was in a higher population area. We’re in a very ag area. Everybody grows up learning how to work on anything and everything, including their firearms. And a lot of them do. Sometimes I see those because they don’t clean them right. But it would be nice to be in a larger community. And my wife and I have talked about moving over to eastern Kansas, where there are a lot more people. And I think it would be a good move for the business, but I’m not sure it’d be a good move for the grandkids and so on. So, we’re still playing with that, but right now we’re good where we are.

Gene Kelly:

Right on. Before we move to David, I want to remind everybody, this is a panel. And so if you have questions about anything related to gunsmithing, we’re going to try and answer those for you. So feel free to go to the Q&A button down there below, click on it and ask your question. And I’ll start bringing those in pretty soon. But if you want to know what’s their favorite tool, how do they do this or that, what’s their approach, anything gunsmithing, we’ll take it on. And I want these guys to be a part of this so that… They’re out there in the trenches and there’s a lot of variety of experience here. Okay. David, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background, what got you started in the gunsmithing, and what you’ve learned and where you’re at now?

David Phelps:

Okay. Thank you, Gene. Yeah. I was in the military. I did eight years active, then I did eight years guard. Then I went and did another 17 years active again.

Gene Kelly:

Wow.

David Phelps:

In the middle of it all, I was a unit armor and took care of the weapons and taught people how to do their weapons. And then got blown up too much for my old job, so they put me flying drones.

Gene Kelly:

Oh.

David Phelps:

Then blew me up even more.

Gene Kelly:

Oh geez.

David Phelps:

So once I retired from the military… I actually was able to retire. I’ve been retired for six years now, but I got bored. I got blithering bored. So I was always looking at doing gunsmithing and did my due diligence just like everybody else did.

Gene Kelly:

Right.

David Phelps:

We found that this was the best course because the other companies, they were lost in the sauce with all their… They were trying to show a video and the guy, he couldn’t do it. He couldn’t even do it, and those where their senior instructors. And I did mine through the VA. I let them pay the bill. So I did a enhanced master’s course and got a crash course. They gave me a whole year to get it done, which is a chore. This is a big course.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah.

David Phelps:

But I enjoyed it all. And once I figured out what I didn’t really know about even the military weapons, then I was good.

Gene Kelly:

That’s my favorite thing I’m always hearing because I had the same experience going to gunsmithing school. I was 18 and yeah, I had studied all the gun models and could tell you all the different ones and this and that. I thought I knew something about guns. Hey, it took about a couple of days with Bob Dunlap to realize I didn’t know jack diddly. And so having learned design function or repair from him has impacted me my whole life. But I do love those very honest, thank you, David, confessions that, “Gee, we thought we knew a lot, but man, there was a lot we didn’t know.” And I really worry for the people out there that are, like you said Don, doing their own stuff and they oftentimes don’t know what they’re doing wrong. And I know that I did stuff wrong even early on as a student. Thankfully, I had the kind of support that you guys got too to get it right. And anyway, so go ahead, David. I kind of interrupted you there.

David Phelps:

Oh, that’s fine. And I did my due diligence, looked around, found that this was the best course to go, the best way. And then I started seeing other gunsmiths, different ones in the areas, that were all shutting down. Stuff wasn’t working right for them. And one of them shut down, and got to talking to him and he had listed down he was a master gunsmith. I was like and said, “Well, where’d you go to school?” “Oh, I didn’t. I just learned it all on the fly.” But he listed down master gunsmith on his paperwork.

Gene Kelly:

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is other thing we hear constantly is that there’s a lot of guys out there calling themselves gunsmiths. And I’m sure they’re good-hearted people. They’re pro Second Amendment guys, I’m sure. But they don’t know what they don’t know. And therefore, they get themselves over their head really easily. One of our other students was telling us about how he had had a customer come in with a Glock that had been to a couple other places, and the one place had thrown a bunch of the wrong parts in it. A wrong generation didn’t know the difference and it was going full auto. And then we know of places where guys can’t get their guns back. Well, part of the reason they can’t get them back is the gunsmith can’t get them back together or can’t fix them, and it’s a dangerous deal. And so they’re just hiding from them. And so, can’t have that. And I just want to remind all of our students and even our GCA members, we’re here to help you guys in the forums get a lot of the expertise. If you’re really over your head, we’ve got gunsmiths that are within our membership, and also Ken Brooks, that’ll take on projects for you and help you out. I mean, I’d expect them to charge you fairly for it, but let’s be that community of real gunsmiths doing real work and doing it right. And anyway, that’s what we’re about. So anyway, the panel is now open. Oh David, tell them… Maybe you said where you were located.

David Phelps:

Oh, I’m about 40 minutes from Savannah, Georgia, by Fort Stewart. And all my clientele are kind of gone at the minute.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah, they’re working. We understand. All right. Well, again, I want to remind you guys, people oftentimes just only work in their area. And so many of our students, once their reputation gets out there and they put themselves out there, they’re getting work from all over the country or at least all over their state. And I’ve had many guys tell me that, “Oh yeah. Had customer drive three hours, four hours, whatever, just to get to me so I could do the work for them.” There is that big a need. So part of it is making people aware of what you do. That’s marketing and that’s part of my [inaudible 00:20:13]. We’ll talk about that in a future GCA, as far as FFL gold or FFL profit systems. So let’s get some questions going guys for these. We’ve got a panel of real working gunsmiths, a variety of experience. Some of them with a decade or more of experience, and this is a good time to ask. So we’ve got some questions like, they want to know Randy, what part of Arizona are you heading to? They’re going to be customers, I think, already. You can answer that if you want. Let’s see. All right. So here’s something you guys can help with. So Hank is saying, “I received my FFL in early May and trying to establish a relationship with wholesalers with no luck as they all seem to want a big storefront with signs, et cetera. Any advice for a newbie starting out and which wholesalers seem to be willing to work with a home based FFL.” Anyone of you want to weigh in? I’ve got a couple too. Go ahead.

Don Harden:

I’ve had the same experience. And he’s right. A lot of the big wholesalers want to have a storefront. They want you to handle guns and so on. I do not sell firearms out of my shop. I will transfer guns for people if they buy them on the internet and so on, but I don’t want to compete with the other people in my town who are selling firearms. And so I just stay out of it and I make sure they know that. Lipsey’s is a distributor that will sell firearms and some parts, of course, Brownells. There’s any number of places that sell parts that will talk with you and so on. Chattanooga Shooting Supply is another one. I’m trying to think of another one or two. But if you look around and if you call and visit with these people, many times, if you’re an FFL holder and you have a sales tax number, if they have discounts available, they will discount to you. It’s kind of a learning process you just have to go through. Just get on the internet and look it up and make a phone call or send them an email, and they’ll happily let you know if they’re interested.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah, I agree with you. Other than just a few of the biggest guys, everybody else is hungry and there’s always new distributors getting into the game as well. I think it’s smart. What you didn’t say, Don, was you are getting work from all those FFL dealers, and that’s part of the reason why you’re not competing with them because they’re giving you work or referring to you. So, that’s a strategy too. Some people do that. Hank, it depends partially on what you want to do. If you want to be setting up a full line shop, then they probably are going to want to see a retail storefront look. But sometimes you can just even create some letterhead and they’ll go, “Oh, okay.” Here’s your name, company name, your FFL number on the letterhead, your contact information. And that is enough in many cases to make them go, “Okay, this guy’s for real.” And you can fax or write it up, and scan it and send it in that way to people and along with your license, and as Don said, your resale number. That’s a biggie too. People know you’re in business. Yeah. Anybody else have another source that they wanted to share with Hank? All right. I will throw a couple more out. If you go get Firearms News magazines, Firearms News, that has a number of companies in there that want your business. Also, if I didn’t already say it, MGE Wholesale. I buy a number of things from MGE wholesale and man, they’ve tripled their staff. And so there’s a lot of people there to help you. I’ve even found RSR Wholesale to work well with me. Haven’t had a problem with them. I don’t buy a lot of quantity of stuff. And if you’re looking for a lot of accessories, that’s where you may run into your storefront thing. But man, most of the stuff you can find. And as for parts, as we said on the membership website, there are some parts listed there and other places. Okay. Let’s get some more questions going on. Okay. I’m going to just start. Let’s see how I’m doing this. Boom. Done. Boom. Done. Okay. So there’s some questions on bookkeeping. I’ll tell you what I do, but guys, do you have any recommended bookkeeping software that you use or anything else?

Randy Sherman:

I’ve been using QuickBooks.

Gene Kelly:

Okay. David, you start.

David Phelps:

Yeah. I went with the FastBound for all of our records because every time I had something that I needed once I was just starting up since last November, you all were spot on to come up with FastBound. And then when it came with [inaudible 00:26:05] when I was looking for limited viability insurance, you guys just keep cost me more and more money, but it’s well worth it. It’s well worth the program and they’re guaranteed.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. And we are saving guys that are members. So that’s another thing. If you’re new, go to the GCA website. There is listed on there some place you can find insurance. They give our AGI gunsmiths a discount, so that’s really cool. And then we did that also, that FastBound interview. I forgot about that. See, that-

David Phelps:

And the FastBound, I’ve had questions with them and they’ll answer you right on the phone. They can go in because they run the website for it. They go in, they’ll look and they’ll see what you screwed up, what you didn’t screw up, tell you how to correct it. They’re spot on people.

Gene Kelly:

Good deal, good referral. And that information’s also on the website as far as how to connect with them. Lorne, you were starting to say something as well.

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]

Gene Kelly:

Far as how to connect with them. Lorne, you were starting to say something as well.

Lorne Cooper:

Yeah. I’ve decided to go with QuickBooks. They have really good invoicing. I have a checking account through them, got a card reader that does all the payments. Their rates are pretty good. So I’m used to using Quicken for my personal finances. So QuickBooks was really easy for the business. I like the way it does the invoices.

Gene Kelly:

Yep. We use QuickBooks ourselves for running the whole company and all the different units in it. So it’s pretty advanced, but that doesn’t do any of the bound book stuff that Dave was talking about. But the question was about both. So you guys have both got good answers now, Don…

David Phelps:

And I’m doing QuickBooks myself.

Gene Kelly:

Oh, okay. Good. Don, you or Randy want to weigh in on this at all?

Randy Sherman:

I’ve used the QuickBooks and that’s where I got my card and all that, but I’ve kept things so simple that as the sole proprietor, which I probably should get in an LLC, but 10 years I haven’t and haven’t had a problem. But I keep such, the record for me is so simple that I have a repair tag and a work order that goes with it. So there’s a paper trail right there with what, the cash was, what was… I don’t do retail sales and a bunch of markups and things where I’m having to rectify all these accounts and books and things. It makes it real simple. It just becomes my personal income of the labor’s non-taxable income. I have the girl that does my personal taxes, throws that in there. And I have all my receipts, all my expenses. It’s real easy just to keep all of those receipts and all that together. And I don’t have any kind of a nightmare of running a business that way. I just keep it real simple.

Gene Kelly:

Right. Don, what about you?

Don Harden:

Just like Randy. I just, I keep it as simple as possible. I do everything by hand. I just keep receipts and keep… I make a, anything comes in I fill out a work order on, then when the work is done, I make sure I get everything on there. And then I make a copy that goes in my file and the other copy goes to the customer. So he has a record, I have a record. Makes it simple, easy. I don’t even have a computer in my shop. I do everything by hand. Old school.

Gene Kelly:

There you go. Hey, I mean, you’ve got a whole spectrum there. I’m sure a lot of our newer members and gunsmiths are going to want more automation and we are digging through and working to see if we can find a solution or develop a solution that would fit really well or work with one, somebody else’s solution. But I get, I think the message is you can go anywhere from simple to more complex and neither one is wrong. They’re both right. As long as it works for you. Okay. Let’s…. Okay. Steven, I’m just taking these the way they’re coming in. Yeah, there’s something I want to remind everybody about, but anyway, just keep asking you questions. Steven [Bannock 00:30:13] is saying, “I recently received an 1862 Joslyn carbine. It is in 56 dash 52 rim fire. Cool. Our rim fire rounds too difficult for beginners. How can I modify this rifle without losing value?” Well, I got a few things for it. I don’t know if anybody wants to jump in first. He’s asking, I think about modification and then rim fire rounds. Now I don’t know what he wants to do with it. So guys, do you have anything quick or I’ll give an appraisal point of view.

Randy Sherman:

When people bring that sort of thing in and ask for an opinion, the first thing I ask them is, okay, is this something that you own because of the value of it? Is this something you want to shoot? And do you intend to use it on a regular basis to shoot or you just want it to function so you can have it for what it’s valued at? And if they’re in that category, I just tell them look, let’s clean it, oil it, clean the wood and then leave it the heck alone. We can check to make sure it functions properly, that it’s safe, but… And those old rim fire cartridges, I don’t know where in the world he’s going to find those. You probably have a better idea than I would.

Gene Kelly:

Well, I do know some people like the [scroungers 00:31:51] out of, they used to be out of San Leandro. But there are some people to specialize in oddball ammunition. One of the things I would, and you were saying the same sort of thing. I add the question, is there any historical value or do you know any of the story behind this rifle? Because oh yeah, that was my great great grandfather or whatever it would’ve been. And yeah, he used it in the civil war. I’d be like, whoa, stop, this frames it all over again. Now you may not want to remove rust if the rust was because there was blood on it from the, and pitting from the battle or something. I mean, the story is to me is almost as important as the functioning of the gun. I mean, obviously from a standpoint of protection and hunting and military law enforcement, it’s always about the function, number one. But guns in general, especially old guns, I want to know, is there a story attached to it. Because that can swing the value of a gun thousands of percent. Now as far as modifying it, if you wanted to shoot something like that, if it was safe and you will know how to evaluate if it’s safe, you could possibly put in a sub caliber device and then transition to something lower, like a 22 rim fire. And it might be a single shot at that point. If it was a, I don’t know, the Joslyn off the top of my head, if that’s a brake carbine or if that’s a repeater. And if it was a repeater, let’s say it was a Spencer, and it was in an oddball something or you wanted to do a sub caliber, you’d have to figure out the dimensionally, what could work and work through the feeding in cartridge tops and so on. And that’s a matter of getting your dial calipers out and your Cartridge’s of the World book or reverse engine engineering it to a cartridge you’re interested in. Anyway, I don’t even know if that’s the direction he was thinking, but there you go.

Randy Sherman:

Gene, what I usually find with things like that, people bring something in like that, that’s kind of rare in its old and it’s antique. They really have this idea in their head what they want to do, but they don’t know anything about it, if it’s doable or what, by the time you educate them and I’ll take them and I’ll take the time to go through some of what we’re talking about, the value and they go, oh yeah, I watched Antiques Roadshow. He said, yes. So you don’t want to [inaudible 00:34:41] it, or whatever. And about the cartridges and by the time they’ve got a better idea of it and I’m telling them, this is what it would cost you and if all you want is… Because I think this ends up, they’ve got this old gun and they want to shoot it. Well, they figure out if you really want to shoot something, go buy a little Ruger 10-22, and you’ll have a lifetime of fun with it and put this thing over the fireplace where it belongs. And often they’ll decide from that information you give, which is a fun part of it, is to educate your clientele and then they can make an informed decision. And more often than not, almost always, something like this comes in and once they’ve got a good understanding of what’s really going on, then they decide that’s probably not a good idea. And modifying something like that, usually not cost productive is a good idea and not safe and just… I turn away a lot of that but if they’ve got lots of money to throw at it. So that my [inaudible 00:35:35].

Gene Kelly:

Absolutely. And the other thing you guys can do is, you don’t always ask everybody’s, all their questions, there’s a point at which you need to get paid just like a doctor, right? I mean, a doctor will go, yeah you’re sick. Well, I want to know exactly what virus I’ve got and this and that and you, well, we’re going to have to run a lot of tests. They’re going to charge you for that. Same thing. This is a perfect opportunity for you guys to make money appraising it. Charge them for appraisal and we cover it all in the appraisal course, charge them for an appraisal, take some pictures for them that’s part of the appraisal and then they can also have the story written up. And man, they got something neat at the end of it that they can show others or keep it in the family. How many cool guns get handed down and nobody knows the story behind them. And there’s awesome stories. So yeah, if you can help them capture that, but it’s worth getting paid for too. All right. Here’s a question for all of you. Everybody can weigh in on this one. From Jet [Townsend 00:36:42], “who works at home and did you have any code problems?

Lorne Cooper:

Let me answer that one, Gene.

Gene Kelly:

Yep.

Lorne Cooper:

I had to go through probably a five month process and three public hearings because my shop is in a residential zone. And the first thing I was told was there was nothing in the code that allowed a gunsmithing service to be home occupancy. So add a, actually get an amendment to the tax code written up, have a public hearing on that and then have another public hearing to get my actual permit, zoning permit before I could even get the business license. So it could be done. And luckily I spoke with my county supervisor of the board for my district, I spoke personally with him and he helped me out. I spoke with the zoning department head and he helped me through the whole process. So it’s possible, but it could be a real adventure.

Gene Kelly:

Oh, and where are you located again, Lorne?

Lorne Cooper:

In Virginia.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Yours is one of the worse stories I’ve heard. Most people don’t have anywhere near that much problem. Guys, what about you guys up there in your various areas? Everybody is… [crosstalk 00:38:08]

David Phelps:

Well in mine, what we ended up having was, I have, it is an ATF thing, you can’t be within a thousand feet of a school. Well, in all these areas, you can’t shake a stick without finding a school up where we are. So we had that and then I had just recently bought a house and moved it. So the small little bitty town in Georgia, but the other houses I had that I was looking at building in, I could not do a business that was within the school zones. And then their HOAs and all of the HOAs has their policies and you couldn’t even put a sign up in the yard saying you’re a business.

Gene Kelly:

There’s a combination. Right, Don, Randy.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. Being from California, I started out and I decided I’m going to do it at home. Unfortunately, I got smart and said, I don’t want to have a gunsmithing business in my home. I don’t wat customers coming here. But some as these others were saying, with the zoning commission, the building department had to sign off on it. And I could have gotten a home FFL. There’s nothing to stop them it’s just like doing Tupperware or something, but they did, oh, you can’t have a sign bigger than three inches by six inches or whatever it was. And no more than a drawer full of tools and all. They wouldn’t know or could enforce it anyway. But I decided that I’d need the shop at home, the shop space and having it at home and be able to do it from home, that part I needed to do. Don’t need a license for that. California, you can’t offsite storage. So I got an FFL at a brick and mortar in town, real lucky I got that, didn’t have pay anything rent wise and that. But also you don’t need a great big brick and mortar to be a gunsmith.All you really need is a 50 square feet or something in the corner of even a shop or something that might wrench a desk for cheap. You really don’t need this huge thing. You have to have a gun safe from storage and type of a thing, but not, you have to have alarm sometimes in places. But you got to have someplace like that and it doesn’t have to be huge and expensive and then you take the guns to your shop at home and work on them like I do, that works real well. They have this only during business hours in California, you can’t do offsite storage, but they… I mean, the guy looked at me in the building department says, I said, right, you giving me a hard time for, what’s going on? He goes, “just bring it into town where it belongs.” I said, oh, I get it, okay. So yeah, just strange, Arizona where I hope to retire to my property there. 36 and a half acres of fence down, high desert land in the middle of nowhere, out of St. John’s and the POA says, can’t run a business there, can’t shoot guns unless you’re inside you. I’m going, oh, that’s good though, because I don’t want my neighbor doing that either. So there’s a plus and minus to it.

Gene Kelly:

All right, Don, you want to weigh in?

Don Harden:

Well, when I started my daughter and son-in-law had a farm in the county and he rented me a small area of his building that he had put up there. And I worked out of there for the first four years, five years. And then they left town, they moved back to Eastern Kansas. And so I had to hustle to find something else. And I found an old garage that was behind the house in the city, in an alley. And it belongs to a well, the gentleman’s actually probably the best customer I have. I’ve built a number of guns for him, but anyway. We signed a lease agreement, just like everything was supposed to be and this and that and the other. And I was working a long, fine. ATF shows up to do a records review. And of course had to show him the lease, this, that, and the other. And then he wanted to know about my business permit. And I said, I don’t think I have a business permit. And they said, well, you have to have a business permit. And I said, well, I haven’t been told I needed a business permit and I’ve talked to the city and they haven’t indicated I needed a permit. Well, yeah, you got to have one to show us. So after he got all my books checked and everything, he went to the city and asked them why I hadn’t been issued a business permit. And they basically told him the same thing, but he was adamant that I had to have a business permit. Well, he ended up having to leave. And he said, when you get your business permit, we need a copy of it. I went down to the city and I talked to them and they just kind of looked at me with a deer in the headlight look, like we don’t issue business permits.

Gene Kelly:

And, if they don’t require… [crosstalk 00:43:04]

Don Harden:

And they said, we remember the guy he was in here and we told him the same thing. I got another good customer who happens to be on the county commission. And I asked him, and he said, don’t worry about it. He said, if the neighbors don’t complain, operate your business. And so, I’ve been there now for six or seven years and nobody’s complained and the city’s happy, I’m happy. But it was, and it was just the one ATF guy. I’ve had him in several times. And it was just the one guy.

Gene Kelly:

Well, the thing is their requirement, they have no jurisdiction locally. Their requirement is that you are operating legally where you’re operating. That’s it. So if that means out of your home, and it’s allowed legally, and a lot of people across the country are doing that. Or if it’s in a situation where you got to be in a commercial space, but like yours, they don’t require a local permit. You’re golden. The only thing I will say is, all of you guys have FFLs, right? Everyone of you? Yeah. You guys have all got. So that, where there’s a will, there’s a way. And like most things in life, you get stopped by the first, no, you’re not getting very far. You need to understand there is no such thing as an absolute no. I’ve learned that in my business life. And I’m sitting here in California with machine gun licenses, destructive device licenses, all kinds of things. I’ve been overseas and done different things. And if you take no for an answer, you won’t go very far. I’ve always found there’s a way to get everything done. It’s just a matter of, is it worth it? Sometimes it’s not and therefore you need to say, well, let’s do a pivot here, like some of these guys did, they pivoted and I’ve talked about this before, small commercial space is not that expensive in most places. And it’s like Randy said too, and Don could probably have done the same thing since he’s not competitive with these other FFLs, oftentimes it makes sense for you to do a joint venture with them. I mean, we had one gun shop contact us, and man, it was such a sweet deal. I wanted to go up and do it. And it was up in [Calusa 00:45:27], which is right in the middle of the duck hunting area. And there’s pig and deer just a few miles away in the hills. And the sporting goods store had been there for like 40 years. They had a separate gun shop that was, I think 300 or 500 square feet, something like that. And they gave them all the business and they only charged them a little bit amount for rent. And the idea was that, and they’d lost their gunsmith and the deal was, they knew what a magnet that was to their business. So oftentimes you guys can, it’s not one plus one equals two, it’s, one plus one equals three or four or five compounded because of the synergy. All right, let’s go past some other things here. Gary says, ” Davidson’s works with small businesses.” So, a lot of it’s approaching them correctly, letting them know that you’re actually seriously in business and your FFL, your resale license, and some letterhead that you can create right on your computer will help reinforce that. Mike is asking the question, “have any of you had the experience of to move your FFL from one state to another?” Have any of you done that? Okay. Well, I can tell you, I have FFLs in multiple states. And what I’ve found is, if you are moving to another place and again, go to ATF on this, they’re not going to lie you, they’re going to tell you the straight up, go to the licensing center and look on their website. But basically when you move, you cannot start gunsmithing in that new area until you have the new FFL. But you don’t, it’s a matter of notification. So you need to notify them, provide them any of the documentation. Like it’s legal for you to do it there. Local license, all that kind stuff. And then they will transfer your license. It’s really not a big deal. It’s a matter of communicating. Okay. So let’s see. And yeah, Davidson’s is coming up again, Mike saying that. John [Plants 00:47:46], “I’ve found that most of the distributors don’t have the forums that my clients want and need these days.” Well, if it’s parts, I would go to parts people. Everything from numeric to jack first, to brown Ls or whatever, and get them the parts that you need when you’re looking for parts. Paul Robinson, “when you started out, what sorts of jobs did you do while you were still a student? How did you advertise yourself to the community while you still a student?” Anybody want… Open house.

Randy Sherman:

I didn’t advertise one as a student, I haven’t advertised in 10 years. The only advertising I do is I got business cards and I’ve got the logo on my truck. Otherwise, if you’re a gunsmith, they’ll be there passing your door, they’ll find you. I can guarantee you. But while I was studying the course, when I got the course, like I said, I had the full-time career. So I didn’t do some other job. I just kept doing that. But I would come, I took it on seriously as it is this isn’t a get rich quick thing. This isn’t going to make you a bunch of money if you don’t work it and do it right. Like anything in life, if it’s worth doing, it’s not going to be easy. I would come home from work every day and I would study for at least one hour, no matter what. And, sometimes it’s two or three hours and then I’d go to bed. And I think, I know I passed every course the first time, which was not easy to do.

Gene Kelly:

That’s impressive.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. And I did it in less than a year, so yeah. So, it all depends on what you are willing to put into it and how you can arrange it and what it really means to you.

Gene Kelly:

That sounds good. And what do you guys start working on when you first got started? And what helped you get the word out a little bit? You’ve already answered that, Randy, but what about the other three?

David Phelps:

I’ve actually got a hilarious one. The first weapon I had to do, and I had to look it up to make sure, was a Marlin 60, which was part of the course. I said, well, let me run this video. I’m going to run it again and again and again. And then, low and behold, I get it all put together again and I got a part sitting on the table. That part wasn’t in the video, there was a newer model that actually put a bolt catch onto the bottom of the Marlin 60. And it was the bolt catch sitting there. I was like, so I had to do the real thing, design, function, and then do the repair again.

Gene Kelly:

There you go. Yeah. And that’s a really important illustration. We show you literally, and also on the website, GCA, there’s literally hundreds of guns, but there are so many variations. But when you know, DFNR, like you just said, David, that’s when you can go, well, I know what this is doing and what this should be doing. And then you don’t just rely on, following everything I wrote. And because that’s what the part swappers do. And you guys aren’t so far above that.

Randy Sherman:

Absolutely. Let me add to that real quick. Because I understand with the Marlin 60, that happened to me a little bit. But the promise you made to me, Gene was, after you study the core course, you’ll be able to fix anything that walks into your shop. And my first entire AD log page were all guns I’d either never seen or never heard of. The very first one was an ATM Automag, that happened to belong to one of the guys at the store where I’d just started. And you’d fire it, you’d go on safe, take it off safe, you fired it, you go on safe. So I DFNR’d it. And I said, I found the spring that was all screwed up. And I said, I wonder, and I went on YouTube. There was only one video on YouTube about it. And they did it wrong and if you did it that way, you would screw the spring up like that.

Gene Kelly:

So you figured out that’s what the guy had probably watched. He’d watched YouTube videos.

Randy Sherman:

That’s probably how it got screwed up, but I had to use the design function part of it to figure out why. Moment of mass, all that good stuff you teach. Why is that going on safe? It the weirdest thing. It’s off safe, fire it, now it’s on safe.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Good job. Yeah. And that, once again shows the vulnerability of the YouTube stuff. You need to know the DFNR for sure. Okay. Anybody else want talk about what sort of jobs did you starting out?

Lorne Cooper:

One of the first ones I got was a FN Browning, 1900 pistol. Had sweet heart grips on it, a beautiful piece. It was a neighbor of mine, brought it into me, says, my wife just got this. It was her granddad’s, brought back from the war. He said, can you just take a look at it? So I looked at it, disassembled it and looked. The extractor was missing, completely gone, just wasn’t there. And so I looked, Jack first actually had him in his inventory, but not in stock and he wasn’t going to have another one. So I ended up actually manufacturing the extractor for this piece. It took me like four tries, but I actually got it. That was fun. I did that. And then he brought me a Daisy Red Ryder from 1946 that I completely refurbished in [rust 00:53:04] blue. That was fun. New guts and H&R double action from 1955 that needed… It was, the funny thing about this guy, he kept talking about using WD 40. He says, grandfather used WD 40. As I pulled apart to this H&R and said, look, this is what WD 40 does to these things.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:53:32] and garbage. Yeah.

Lorne Cooper:

Yes.

Gene Kelly:

Well, Don, what do you, what did you start off doing?

Don Harden:

I was sitting here trying to remember and I don’t know. But I do know when I got to the courses, I just decided that, I think with the background that I have in the…

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:54:04]

Don Harden:

My major in college was industrial arts and auto mechanics, which helped a lot with the gunsmithing because they taught us basically the same thing about design, function, repair and automobiles too. But I don’t recall the model. After finishing the classes up, I entered my business with the attitude, if it comes in the door, I’m going to fix it. And I’ve only had… Over the last 11 years, I’ve had about three firearms that I’ve had to give back and tell the customer, “I’m sorry, I cannot fix this.” And one of them, not surprisingly, was a Bryco. I finally have decided that I won’t work on Brycos anymore.

Gene Kelly:

All zinc cast.

Don Harden:

Yeah. And the other one is a recent manufacturer. It was on the website here a while back, it’s a shotgun manufacturer. And I had two of them in, both of them with the same kind of issues. They’re new guns, I mean, on end of the market importers in Kansas city, Missouri, I believe. And I just told them, “I won’t work on these, the parts are soft.” And when you got soft parts, I can’t make it work. It’s just going to keep failing. But whatever gun it was that I worked on first, it was to take it apart so I could Cerakote it. And that truly is the reason I got the started the gunsmithing class was because I just needed more education on how. And then it became so danged interesting. The gun lap, I wish I could have met that man. And wow, he’s super good.

Gene Kelly:

Well, the good news is he birthed many of you, so you’re out there continuing this. All right. I will say that if I was to start over again today, I definitely would leave with the cleanings because cleaning is the… Especially using ultrasonics, it leads to magnetic attraction because a lot of guys know that they needed their gun cleaned. And that’s when the real work starts, where you go, “Oh yeah, but you have a broken part here. Or the safety doesn’t work, or look at this finish on this.” And so on. And now as a business person, you’re having a discussion with them, how you can help them get what they want out of that firearm. Reliability, better appearance, customization, whatever it is. And a lot of it starts with a simple, clean and oil. And you can advertise that wide and far, and that’s why we do promote that whole ultrasonic system. Anyway, the couple other things here. Sorry, guys. The voice.

David Phelps:

I got one for that sonic.

Gene Kelly:

Oh, okay.

David Phelps:

I went to the… I’ve been looking at possibly buying a sonic myself, and then I got an email from SIG. STIG’s now pushing, “Hey, do your yearly stuff. Go do a tune up, send it to us. We’ll do a Sonic cleaning and change all your Springs. 65 to $75.”

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you what. What would you rather do ship your gun off to them or take it to your local gunsmith? I’d rather take it to my local gunsmith. So, but yeah, even SIGs trying to get in on the action, huh?

David Phelps:

Yes, they are.

Gene Kelly:

But the ultrasonic is the spec… And by the way, not all I did research on this. Not all ultrasonics are equal. There’s some that are out there that are just plastic. Some that are more like the dental ones. The Infante has a… The frequency range it uses, the power of the transducers, the heating element, the actual materials that you put in it, all of that are just a cut above and really work. All right. Here’s John. John, excuse me, Antal. And he’s saying, “My FFL is one week old.” Hey, John, congratulations. Good deal. We were all there at one time. “I’m putting my business cards a letter head together. Do I put my FFL on those?”

Lorne Cooper:

No, no, no.

Gene Kelly:

A bunch of nays.

David Phelps:

No, no, no.

Gene Kelly:

I will agree and disagree. I wouldn’t put it on my business cards. I would probably put it on my letterhead that I was using with any of the other companies. Because that’s what we’re talking about earlier. When you send it in and you look like you’re in business, they’re probably going to go with it. But I would not put it on my regular business cards because you don’t know where some of those might end up and somebody might try and do something with your license. So-

Lorne Cooper:

No, I wouldn’t do it. When the ATF interviewed me, the IOI actually told me, he said, “Look, once you get your FFL, just put it in a drawer somewhere. Don’t even display it because somebody’s going to take it.”

Gene Kelly:

Well, yeah. Again, I got to challenge that advice because part of a requirement is your license must be displayed.

David Phelps:

Must be on the wall.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. So it’s got to. So this is something guys that happens. ATF hires guys, they all get trained, but they get trained by people and not all of them know even what we know. All right. And so take it all, don’t get yourself in trouble. And don’t get into a shouting match with any of these guys, that’s not smart. But take all of it with a grain of salt and make sure that it complies with what the rules really are. So that stick it in a drawer thing, I mean, literally it’s a requirement. I think it even says it literally on it, “Must be displayed.” And that’s one of the things that they have checked on me when they have had my infrequent inspections is my license displayed like it’s supposed to be. So anyway, but-

Randy Sherman:

I put-

Gene Kelly:

Yeah.

Randy Sherman:

I put my original in the safe and then I put my display copy as a copy. And it says, “File copy only.” On it that I write on it.

Gene Kelly:

Yep. No, that’s fine. That’s displayed. Yep. All right. Okay. A couple others, Aero Precision. Rsell is saying, “Aero Precision and RSR will work with you.” There’s a lot of guys. Like I said, they’re in the business of selling stuff. They just don’t want to be selling to tire kickers that are retail customers and then end up competing with licensees. The one thing I will say for most gunsmiths, you want to be very selective about the money that you put into inventory. Because inventory can choke you if it’s not turning. So it’s good to have certain inventory to offer, but think it through. And there’ll be a few things when we expand on the FFL profit systems, I’ll talk to you guys about that a little more, but right now I want to keep it to the things in the panel. Okay. How many of you guys… Matthew Peerpoint is asking, “How many of you guys have had to reach out to AGI for help on jobs as you were getting started experience in the industry?” Okay. Don’s raising his hand. Randy, you ever have to reach out to us.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah, I’ve talked to a bunch of you a few times. But amazingly, I haven’t really had to. I started going into the webpage and listening to everything as a student. I did the student part, that’s very helpful as a student. But I started answering questions more than asking them on the webpage. And I really got a kick out of after a while when I would get to something. And this been when Ken Brooks was on there a lot. And Ken would come on and say, “What Randy said.” I said, “Oh.” I’d pat myself on the back, yeah, made me feel real good. And I spent a week with him up in Coquille, Oregon at his shop, working on revolvers. That was really very worthwhile.

Gene Kelly:

Let me bring that up to anybody that’s listing. If you’re an AGI gunsmithing student and you have a certificate to go to those hands on classes like Randy was talking about. They’re usually very small, less than 10, and you will get a ton of additional confidence and learn different things and so on, which is a lot of fun too. Some of Ken’s thinking process will rub off on you. Although I got to tell you that over the shoulder, over the gunsmith shoulder, is a lot of fun because he does… The more you learn to think like a gunsmith, the faster the work will go for you. Anybody else get helped out by us? We’re always here to help with phone calls and so on, but I don’t too many of that-

Don Harden:

I’ve actually sent a couple of guns that I was in over my head on into Ken. One of them, believe it or not, was an H and R revolver. And it cost a lot of money to get it back. But the reason I couldn’t fix it and I didn’t have enough experience with that gun. When Ken called me and said he had it ready. He said, “This gun is a mishmash of parts from different models.” And he said, “None of the parts are for this particular gun. This is something that somebody has rebuilt sometime in its life.” Well, so that made me feel a little bit better. And then I had a custom shop SMW in 3.27 mag, that was a new gun. And this gentleman and I worked together when I was still working at our local hospital as a maintenance guy. But he said it would spit lead and he bought it for his wife. And so I bought a range rod for it and tried to range it. And I couldn’t get this stupid thing to range properly. So I just sent it in to Ken and Ken sent it back and well he said, “It’s no wonder you couldn’t range it.” Because he said, “Three of the boars in the cylinder are misdrilled.” And you can range three of them or you can range the other three of them, but you can’t range all six of them.

Gene Kelly:

So it’s a factory defect.

Don Harden:

Yeah. And he’d already sent it back to Smith and Smith told him there wasn’t anything wrong with it. So needless to say, he wasn’t very happy with Smith. But I’ve actually sent a couple in to him because I just… I was sure I knew what I was doing, but I couldn’t fix it.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Well, in that case, nobody would’ve able to fix it. It needs a new cylinder. Period.

Don Harden:

Yeah. Right.

Gene Kelly:

I mean, unless you want to set up the time. Well, I’m a firm believer that you can fix anything. It’s a matter of whether or not it’s worth fixing it. I mean, I could come up with some ways that you could fix that, but it’d be ridiculously time consuming. All right. Let’s get to a couple of these others. Let’s see. Here’s something interesting. Tom I-O-I-M-O, Ioimo. I’m not pronouncing that right but I’m terrible guys, you know that. “Hello, Gene and panel. My name is Tom, and I’m a gunsmith at a local shop here in the San Francisco bay area for about 12 years now. I have my own FFL and business license for myself to work on firearms at my house for extra money. And I’m in the works right now and getting my business proposal loan written up so I can start my own shop. Living in the Bay Area, the peninsula exactly, is extremely expensive.” Yeah. I think this is where Google has a huge campus. Facebook, all those guys. He got all the Zucker billionaires jacking the prices up. Anyway, yeah, he’s right. “Extremely expensive to get into a shop. And it’s also getting hard to find a small shop, big developers buying them all up and turning them in apartments. So I need to get a building, but how to go about is pretty scary.” Well, he’s been doing it now for a while, so that’s good. You got a clientele. This is more of a questionable talk about FFL profit systems. How to get money, how to think through different scenarios on how to run your business. So thanks for that, Tom. Appreciate it. Yeah. Mark Sweet says, “RK Enterprise provides my repair tags and work orders for repairs.” I’m sure a lot of you guys probably use them. That’s who we use on a default basis when we give every student the stuff, their initial things. All right. Here’s one for-

Randy Sherman:

Gene.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah.

Randy Sherman:

On that, those tags and work orders and that. I showed that to an ATF agent that was doing one of my few checks and she looked at, she was so appreciative. She goes, “Can I take a picture of that and show people how it should be done?”

Gene Kelly:

Nice.

Randy Sherman:

They work really good. I like them. And they’re very professional.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. We have a very good relationship with them as well. So, all right. This is for all of you guys, Philip Luanne is saying, “What type of business structure did you all go with, sole proprietor, LLC, et cetera?” Go for it guys.

David Phelps:

Okay. What I did, I did the looking around. If you’re a sole proprietor, you’re putting into your individual taxes. If you’re an LLC, and you’re still the sole person proprietor, you’re still putting it into your personal taxes. But the LLC is going to cover and separate your house from your business so you do not lose your house and your car and everything, because some knucklehead does something. So now LLC just separates your personal from your stuff. You’re still of sole proprietor, but you’re still… You’re an LLC, but it gets listed as a sole proprietor. And I know Gene knows that, because he is shaking his head, but-

Gene Kelly:

Right.

David Phelps:

And I’ve had numerous people come up and say, “I should have done an LLC. Now I got to go change all my paperwork.”

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s part of it. Do make your choice before you submit for your license, but don’t be a deer in the headlights about it either. Because I changed from a… I was actually a sole proprietorship for many years and then I… Like I tell people, “If you don’t have a lot of assets, it doesn’t matter. And the chances, if you follow what we’re teaching of you getting sued is pretty doggone small. And if you carry insurance that even more. But as your assets increased and as mine did, I moved to being a corporate status.” And it is a matter of you have to re… A corporation they view as a separate individual, separate from you. So it is a new license. My situation having a lot of MFA weapons was a little unique because we had to maintain both licenses for a little period of time, as we did the handoff, most people it’s pretty easy. What about you guys? Randy, I think you said.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah, I’m a sole proprietor. I’m one of those guys that just didn’t want to change all the paperwork, never have. And one of the reasons that I just did sole proprietor was because of everything I was doing and studying the course and getting certified and getting the FFL, all. And that was one more thing to do was a little bit more money that I didn’t have. It’s not much more, but it’s a little bit. And it’s just more paperwork. And I thought, “Well, I’ll see later.” Later is 10 years and I never have. But I’ve also been very aware of what gets sued and what doesn’t. And I’ve got excellent insurance, which does keep going up every year for no reason. Well, there are reasons, but that’s another webinar.

Gene Kelly:

If you have attorneys.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. I would suggest that when you’re in the process of doing all of this to begin with is doing an LLC. I’ve taken other steps to protect my old house and some things that… Yeah, I don’t have a whole lot to lose, but, yeah, it’s all in a living trust in some other places, whereas you can’t touch it. But yeah. Do the LLC is a good idea.

Gene Kelly:

All right.

Lorne Cooper:

Yeah. I went with an LLC right off the bat, because I wanted to keep that separation. Even though it’s funny, because it’s separated, but I file one on my personal taxes. So like I said before, it is a sole proprietorship. It just gives you that extra level and layer of protection.

Gene Kelly:

Yep.

Lorne Cooper:

And it was relatively inexpensive.

Gene Kelly:

Yep. And Don?

Don Harden:

Oh, my story is just exactly the same as Randy’s.

Gene Kelly:

Okay.

Don Harden:

Should, would’ve but didn’t. I didn’t need to.

Gene Kelly:

But hasn’t merchant… Really hasn’t-

Randy Sherman:

The write offs on my taxes every year are fantastic.

Gene Kelly:

Well, one thing I, we’re an S corporation and a C corporation for another company. The S is very similar, all of the income flows to your personal taxes, but there is a separation of property. So figure out what’s right for you. Don’t listen just to us, go and talk to a CPA or business attorney locally. And just get what’s right for you. But don’t let it stop you, it’s just a little speed bumping things. Okay. Anonymous Attendee. What does he say here? “Oh, do you have a specific mini-lathe and mini-mill you would recommend? Are you familiar with the Eastwood products?” I’m not familiar with Eastwood, but that may be a brand where a lot of the same factories are producing these items and then they are rebranded.

Lorne Cooper:

Eastwoods are automotive, Eastwood does automotive stuff.

Gene Kelly:

Okay.

Lorne Cooper:

They have all kinds of different like grizzly.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. But they’re probably made in the same Taiwan on factories. Yeah. Nothing wrong with them. Nothing wrong with them at all. Anyway, do you guys have a specific mini-lathe or mill that you guys use or? And how much would you… I mean, how much do you even use? I mean, I use mini-lathe a lot, but I don’t use a mini-mill much.

Lorne Cooper:

I’ve got an old south bend nine inch that I refurbished that I’m using.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah.

Lorne Cooper:

And an old Vernon vertical lathe Horton, horizontal. It’s with a Vernot vertical head. I like the old stuff, they’re all from the forties. My drill presses from the fifties.

Randy Sherman:

Yeah. I’m still using the same grizzly laser that came with the enhanced course.

Gene Kelly:

Yep. That’ll do most of the stuff, you need one for general repair.

Randy Sherman:

Well, mostly I make tools with it.

Gene Kelly:

Okay.

Randy Sherman:

Seems to be it. Just turn little tools or turn something down, make something work. And I don’t have enough concrete for a really big lathe, so I don’t do those kinds of jobs. And I don’t know if I’d have paid for a lathe with what I would… Because you specialize in everything. So the mini-lathe is really useful for a lot of little things, that you’d be amazed at how many little things. But you got to be getting into some little chambering and things and other stuff with a big lathe, so I don’t have one of those. Haven’t missed much work from it.

Gene Kelly:

Good. Yeah. Anybody else?

Don Harden:

I had a mini-lathe when I first started, I don’t remember the brand name of it. And I used it some, but right off the bat, I got started getting requests for rebarrelling. So I found a Logan 11 inch lathe that I bought. And like Lorne, I kind of liked the older stuff. That’s what I learned on initially, and it came out of a gunsmith’s shop. I had a lot of hours on it and it certainly has some wire here and there, but you learn to take the tolerances out. And I’ve done a lot of barreling on that lathe, made a lot of parts on that lathe. And then I have an Enco drill mill, which I really need to replace and get a real live to God mill. Because when you’re trying to do custom slides for glocks and some things that way, those things are so hard that the… It’s really stresses what I’ve got. But you’ve got to weight it, have you got enough work to justify that or not? But the lathe has been worth every penny and I’ve barreled a lot of rifles with it. And I’ve had really outstanding results. And so I’m happy with it, I wouldn’t do without it.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Anybody else? All right. Here’s Bob Walters. We pretty much answered this and was, “Whether they’re running your shops out of their homes and how do you deal with people coming to your home for business?” Anybody want to talk about that at all?

David Phelps:

I cheated a little bit. I built a new home, so I had a overly stupid big garage even. I still have a two car garage, took a partial… A full section, had a wall through AC in it built a complete shop in, put a separate door, put a separate walkway ans a separate driveway because I’m at an angle of a road. So they still pull up in my main driveway.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. But that’s pretty cool. Pretty cool. Anybody else? Or I got something for them but.

Lorne Cooper:

Yeah, my shops has detached garage. So they don’t come to my house, they go down to the garage.

Gene Kelly:

All right. I know you two are working out of commercial Don and Randy. The second part of it is I think is how do you deal with people. And I’m going to say… He says, “Coming into your home.” I’m going to say, “Coming into your home or your business.” And one of the things that I would recommend is that you have an area that they come into and meaning that they’re contained. You’re not… Don’t let them wander through your shop and don’t let them see the magic that you’re doing. Because sometimes the magic is ugly when you’ve got bend a frame or something like that, you don’t want them looking at there going see their gun bouncing two feet off the bench. And then you know that’s the right thing, and they’re like, “Ah.” So, and if you have a professional area where they can come into, be seated, have a conversation. I know that Gene Shoey has a area within his shop that he meets with prospective customers and he’s building multi-thousand dollars handguns. And he’ll sit down with him at a conference table and have a discussion. So it sets the tone of how you’re bringing stuff in. I’ve worked at traditional gunsmithing shops or right across the counter, they’re taking the guns in, put them in a rack, supposed to be clearing them and then put them into the gunsmithing shop racks. Well, I will say this, you need to have some rules. And I got a chance to chew out my boss actually, because a gun ended up on my bench loaded and we had multiple gunsmiths in that shop. And thankfully I clear everything always. And so you always have to be safety first, but you need to expand that to your customers as well. And I think you can do that through signage and you can also do through compartmentalization and then how professional. If you want to charge real… If you’ve been to a real expensive jewelry store or a real expensive anything store, man, part of it is the environment that they’re having that money conversation with you in. And even doctor’s offices, real expensive dentists, real expensive plastic surgeons. I mean, you’re moving in, you’re coming into this beautiful environment. You’re going, “Oh-oh. This isn’t going to be cheap.” Well, same kind of thing. If you have a juiced grease pat people are going to expect to do stuff for a buck. But if they come into a professional looking area where you’re meeting them and it doesn’t have to be your full shop, you can set the tone with your certificates on the wall and sit behind a desk. Maybe if you want or have a little conference area or whatever it is. Also, you can prewarn them if you want. And you may have… Up to you, may choose to have no loaded to the firearms beyond this point, absolutely. I don’t care if you’re whatever, you must unload. That’s a possibility depending on how you want to run your business. Anyway, my point is you set the rules, you set the tone. And these are the days you can even do that on your website. But again, that’s more into the FFL profit systems work. Let me read this one to everybody. Excuse me. This is MMCNA, was the initials-

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:21:04]

Gene Kelly:

CNA was the initials. Okay. “Hello all I’m now in the middle of my shotgun test.” Go guy, go. That’s the toughest one. Don’t forget the information that’s on the GCA website in the class. Help you so much. “I rolled the master gunsmith course in December. I’m also in the process of handing in my FFL paperwork. I’m in central Illinois, and hopefully the opening as soon as I see my FFL. I was wondering how wide of scope of a service did all of the panel offer when opening up? I plan on doing basic cleaning and I don’t know what else to offer right off the top. I have a pretty full machine shop with TIG, 12 by 36 inch lathe, trail press, grinders, polishers, [inaudible 01:21:49] tools. Pretty much all I would need, except for blooming tanks. I’m just nervous about opening up as “full service” knowing how many guns I’ve never seen before. I have a lot of personal firearms and upon enrolling, I realize how much I didn’t know.” See, there it is again. The design, the “design, function, repair” approach has been a big eyeopener. Just looking for some newbie advice, great class by the way!! Anyway so the one thing in there that I’ll pass on you guys is, how nervous should he be about just saying, “I do gun repair.”

Don Harden:

Not at all. He’s well trained if he’s passed the course. If he’s taken the class, he’s got the training, he understands design, function, or repair, DFR. If he he’s got a good handle on that, don’t be afraid of anything comes in the door. There’s a lot of resources out there. When I was a young man and was interested in doing a lot of my own work and so on and so forth, I invested in a lot of assembly, disassembly books that were published by NRA and some of the other publishers. I’ve got a library now that is just unreal. And if the information’s out there all you got to do is open the book. An exploded firearm drawing is worth its weight and gold, as far as seeing uh oh, where did this spring go when you about to get it all back together. And I know everybody’s been in that boat once or twice, or where did this pin go? Or where did that pin go? Why is this pin slightly larger? Or why is this one’s serrated on the end and none of the rest of them are? That’s all in those exploded drawings. And so spend a little money on some additional written material, because even though we’ve got the videos, some of those small things don’t show up. But man don’t turn anything down. It’s an experience and it’s a good learning experience. And like everybody says, you don’t know the answers. Well, I’m 73 years old hell, I don’t even know the questions. So I learn new ones every day. And so the way to get there, take it on.

Lorne Cooper:

I agree.

David Phelps:

Yeah. Yeah. And there’s also, he has the whole library because he is in the master course. He stated that. so if he gets a weapon and he doesn’t know it, he’s got a very high chance he’s got the video of that, or what’s closest to it. Run that video. You might not be in that section of that course, but run that video so you can get the money to finish, that weapon out.

Gene Kelly:

Right on. I agree. And also, yeah go ahead.

Randy Sherman:

You, going to be nervous and that’s OK. Because if you start moving metal around in somebody’s baby. You get nervous, but, you do. You have AGI backing up, you got all that information. But above all, you just be honest with your customer because if you bring something in and you can’t fix it and you choose not to send it to Ken or do something else, then you explain to them what it is and why it is. And I have found that people really appreciate an honest gunsmith. And then you decide whether or not what you’re charging for your time and how that goes. But don’t be afraid to do something. But do follow your heart on what you love and what you like. Everybody’s got to specialize to some degree, you can’t do everything. There’s just way too much. You can’t be really good at everything. So find the things that you really like and get really good at those and then maybe add some stuff later. But I agree with what everybody said, don’t turn stuff down just because it’s a little nerve wracking and you’re not sure. Because you in a few years, you’ll be a lot more sure.

Gene Kelly:

There you go. All right. Okay. Anybody else? That’s I think everybody weighed in. That’s great. Oh, I want to remind everybody though, too. I’m going to keep harping on this. There’s almost 200 disassembly, reassembly courses on the doggone GCA website. Right? We keep adding them. So look there to make sure we may have already done it. You just go watch that too. All right. Richard says most dealers that I have dealt with, I tell them I attend AGI and I have no issues making purchases. He’s got that all in caps. One, thank you, Gene for this fantastic training course, anyone know how to find out a serial number info on older Winchester rifles? I was told they were destroyed in the fire. Well, anybody?

David Phelps:

Their website still has some of the stuff on there. You can’t get the set information of who built this, where it was made. Exactly. But you can get the year and you can get the years by the serial number windows and everything. You just can’t get the made in this shot by Bill, Frank and Sam. You can’t get that anymore… but–

Gene Kelly:

I also check with your collectors associations. A lot of them have done tons digging and compiling because it’s their passion. We might like the fixing part. Some of them just like going deep into every model and serial number. So definitely check with your associations. And then there are some private services as well. Anybody else? All right, Jess is saying, “Just want to thank all of you for your time and your willingness to share your experience and wisdom. I love this group, this program and this industry. God bless. Pretty cool.” Thank you, Jess. That’s the community we’re trying to build here. So thanks for being a part of it. All right. We got bunch of thank yous coming in Richard. Just saying, “I’m just setting up my ultrasonic cleaner. It is unbelievable the way it cleans.” Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Richard, “I mention AGI to anyone and they are rather impressed than I’m actually taking a gun smithing course.” Yeah, like these guys all said like and they’re going to come around like flies, it’s attraction. David Hill and says, “Paul, you can do pretty much whatever jobs you feel comfortable with. As long as you do not charge for the work, you can advertise as a serious hobby student. Just don’t get in over your head and be sure to understand the system you’re working on. Just my opinion.” I will go along with that, except I defer one thing. You already know, even if you’re only into the course a little bit, you already know 100 times what they do and you are willing to learn. If doctors only charged you for what they absolutely knew, they couldn’t charge you at all. And they do. So you guys do the same. It’s okay for them to pay when you have to go figure something out. The difference is just be fair. If it took you 10 hours, you may not be able to charge 10 hours, but be fair. You’re in this for real. It’s one of the biggest things I fight with people on is they’re, “All gee, shucks. I don’t know that much. I’m not that great.” Listen, you are so much better than they are. And the many hacks that are out there that have no training whatsoever and they’re charging people and they’re ruining their guns. So take it on, take it on.

Randy Sherman:

[inaudible 01:30:08] Gene.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah.

Randy Sherman:

What I now charge for service for something that would be $70 now I originally charged 35. And even though it was 10 years ago, it’s not the big difference in the economy or nothing, but I literally would take in a gun and like you said, you fight with this thing. You really are worth it and you have to exude that to people. You have to let them understand that. Yeah, I’m the gunsmith and I’m going to do this for this much. But to the point where I spend some time over the counter with them, which I don’t spend a lot of time over the counter every day, half an hour, an hour after my day job. But sometimes there’ll be something I’ll do a guy a real solid or teach him something or show him, do something for him and something really simple. And now he knows, and he says, “What I owe you?” I says, “I don’t charge for over the counter, but I do accept tips.” They always give me more than I would’ve charged them.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah and I know some other gunsmith get some very fine bourbon time to time.

Randy Sherman:

I got smlet backs straps there last week.

Gene Kelly:

All right, John is plants is asking, “Hey, do you guys retain the work tags along with work order after you return the gun of the owner?”

David Phelps:

Yes.

Randy Sherman:

Yes.

Gene Kelly:

Okay. Good answers.

Randy Sherman:

And any test fired rounds with it. If, if need be, if there was any work that would warrant test firing and keeping the round.

Gene Kelly:

Good, good advice. I agree. Okay, Tom is asking on the LLC, “Does that have to be done to the FFL and your business license?” Yes. The answer is when you create an LLC, just think of, as I’m creating a new human. I’m creating a new person, that’s how they view a corporation. It’s a person. And therefore you need, they get your license in that name and you get the business license in that name. And the order of the way to do things would be set up the FFL, the LLC, get your business license next and then do your FFL after that. And if you have any questions, follow the info that we have that we give with every level, the pro gun smithing course now. And have for many years.

David Phelps:

Yeah, your class on how to do the business side was spot on. And then just to do all the base paperwork to this, I just went and paid some dollars and went to one of these online ones and just compared which ones had the better things. And it took me 10 minutes to type in a few answers. And within a day I had the complete business listed up. They filed my state taxes to register me in a state. Everything was pretty much done except for my local permit. Cost me a little bit of dollars, but no grievance there was nothing to it. It was just, here’s this information do it. It’s done.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. And there are a number of those online places that’ll do stuff like that for you. I’ve used them for filing trademarks and things like that. So, okay. David Hill is saying Eastwood is better quality than Harbor Freight. Good. All right. And on the LLC, okay. I already covered that one. All right. Mr. Flint says, “Did any of you talk to an accountant when you started up your business? Accountant, CPA?”

Lorne Cooper:

Just the person that does my taxes and had been doing it for several years.

Gene Kelly:

OK.

Lorne Cooper:

Figured out all the write offs and what to keep in receipts and what I needed.

David Phelps:

Yeah. I talked to a local friend, but she runs does my taxes and she just said, “Get Quickbooks or another version of it, bring the paperwork in. And then they sit and do the little bit of paperwork.” It’s too easy.

Gene Kelly:

Okay.

David Phelps:

Keep your records.

Gene Kelly:

Oh, go ahead Lorne.

Lorne Cooper:

I spoke with our financial advisor about it. I don’t have an accountant. I pretty much do that myself.

Gene Kelly:

Okay. Good. All right, Don, I think you were shaking your head the same way on you just talked to the tax repair or something. Okay. At the shop I work at the they Jet 1240 in a Bridgeport Mill. I don’t know the 1240 specifically, but it sounds like it’s 12, probably a 12 inch swing and 40 inch bed, is my guess. But anyway, and that’s going to be fine for most of what you’re doing. There is one thing, there is gear head head versus belt drive. And I’ll just tell you that Darrell Holland, prefers belt drive and prefers bell drive, he feels he gives him a smoother finish. All right. Well. Okay. Steven Bannock, “I’m building a mountain man store to work with black powder weapons. How will ATF look at this with modification and part building if I only have a class one license? Or can I even do that?” Well, black powder weapons are for the most part exempt from modern firearms regulations. So again I’m going to just give you my general opinion, make sure you dig a little deeper on ATFs website, but I don’t see any problem here at all. And your class one license allows you to deal in modern firearms. Pre 1898 firearms don’t even require a transfer. I will say in most states, I mean, federally. Right? So we go backwards and again, check the rules for your ATF in your local area. But I think you’re good to go.

David Phelps:

Yeah, because I asked ATF that question about making black powder rifles. They said you can make as many as you want it’s not covered by ATF. That was their exact words.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. Good Dylan french, “Not sure anyone asked how you doing Gene? Missed the first few minutes. You sound a little hoarse. Hope you feel better.” Thanks guys. I do feel fine. I just was traveling and somewhere somebody gifted me this. I’m just hoarse. Other than that, I feel fine. But thank you. Let’s see, Bob Walters again said, “When you first started your shops, did you start out doing anything and everything? Or did you start limiting your service? Or did you turn work away?” We answered that in spades. Haven’t Guys? Everybody’s saying yeah, take it in. Learn, that’s how you learn. Tom says, “That’s a great part of the DVDs you can go back and look at them again and again. Good luck trying that in a classroom.” Amen brother. When I left school had left working for Bob, I still had the privilege of being able to call Bob occasionally and pick his brain. But I didn’t have any DVDs. I wish I had because Bob wasn’t always available and wasn’t always willing. So

Lorne Cooper:

DVDs are gold.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah,

David Phelps:

They are.

Gene Kelly:

Yep. All right. Richard, “Winchester was assembled in one place, bolting up.” All right. I think that was related to the serialization. “What’s the best website book or source to get accurate gun evaluations?” What are you guys opinions?

Don Harden:

Blue book.

Gene Kelly:

Okay. He’s got gun book. They just sent me the latest one, The Blue Book of Gun Values and I haven’t even got it out of the plastic yet. Look how big that sucker is.

David Phelps:

Nice.

Gene Kelly:

And they also have, you can do the online service with them and it’s pretty cheap. So that’s one resource. There are a couple of others. Anything you guys like better?

Lorne Cooper:

I don’t like anything better than the blue book, but Gun Value site I go to sometimes they have an online thing.

Gene Kelly:

OK.

Randy Sherman:

There’s the antique book of the gun values, the same thing. You can also use the different catalogs that they have. Those are usually going to be out of date, but as far as the prices go, but it gives you an idea. And so well, often you can educate your customer between the photo percentage grading that the blue book uses and the NRA with doing things for grading, for the older guns. But the thing that I find is you got to be careful of is your regionality because my pump 30 odd 6, 760 Game Master is worth more back east than it is in California.

Lorne Cooper:

Right?

David Phelps:

Yeah.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. So there’s we teach some of this in the appraisers course. There’s really buckets. There’s common guns that are vanilla and those are pretty easy. And you go to Blue Book or many of the other places, Gun Broker, see what they’ve been selling for in the auctions. But if it’s an older gun, you want to really be more careful because it may have a lot more collective value and it’ll look that up. And then another bucket is providence. Who owned this thing? If nobody important, well, or didn’t have a story behind it. But a lot of people that weren’t famous, their guns are worth a lot with the right story. I see all these Colt single actions that were owned by the deputy at the gold mining company or whatever. And there’s a story there and that tripled the value. It doesn’t have to be Wyat Earp’s. Right? By the way, you may have seen a picture of me holding Al Capone’s 1911 and his pocket 380 or 1903 rather. And that gun, if I recall correctly, they thought it would sell for, I think $150,000. Crazy money. Right? It ended up selling for like $800,000. It was a 1911, it was a custom shop, but it was a 1911 with a proper providence record keeping. It came from Al Capone’s son’s estate. And I think that the pocket auto went for close three or something like that.

Randy Sherman:

And the thing I find Gene about the appraisal, I did take the appraisals course. Lends a lot of credence to people from you what I’m telling them. But they all think their guns are worth a fortune. You got to know why they’re appraising and what for. But the big thing to watch out for is they’ll say, “But they’re going for this much on the internet.” No, that’s what they’re asking. That’s not what they sold for. And you’re not going to find out what they sold for. So a lot of different places to look.

Gene Kelly:

And then as I say in the course, ultimately what the value is is of anything is between a willing seller, and a willing buyer. Whatever they agree upon. That’s the real price. It may be stupid.

Randy Sherman:

So that’s what we always tell them in the shop, your gun’s worth what you can get somebody to pay you for it.

Gene Kelly:

Right.

Lorne Cooper:

That’s right.

Don Harden:

Yeah. The buyer’s got to have the cash.

Gene Kelly:

Okay. Well, and just to show, you can get some serious money here. Tom’s saying, “As far as prices and jobs, I just resoldered a bottom barrel support rib on a Winchester, 121 and charged the customer 350 bucks.” And I imagine he was happy to pay it. Because if you didn’t fix it, right, those barrels are going to come unglued eventually. And that’s a real loss. So anyway, we’re getting a lot of thank yous. I have one, the questionnaire, that’s just a little out of our scope tonight. He has a mini 14, is shooting 223. And it’s denting the cases. I’m having a hard time getting this figured out. It’s not uncommon for first of all, with like an AR it’s going to demo all your cases. And if you’re shooting an HK, it’s going to bang the crap out of the cases. And if you’re shooting the mini, you’re still going to get… What’s happening is on the ejection is strong enough that as the case is flipped, it’s hitting the side of the receiver of the bulb. And it’s normal. And when you reload, it’ll be fine. Just full length, resize. Anybody have any disagreement with that or?

Randy Sherman:

No, I have a collectors that bring me those all the time and he’s got lots of them. And he often has me put in the little bit smaller gas collar and the gas block. So until he gets to the point of malfunction, then we go back to the next bigger one. But that helps with it.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah. So what you’re doing is reducing-

Randy Sherman:

Reduce the gas.

Gene Kelly:

… the gas [inaudible 01:43:19] the function of it. And the only downside, and I know you know your way around it. But for anybody else, is you could create, if you just go open up the gas block, you could create malfunctions. So that is normal on that gun. I’d rather have that than a malfunction. But if you are doing a lot of reloading, you do want to soften it up, you can go about that. But know what you’re doing. All right? Anyway guys, I think I am done here voice [inaudible 01:43:51] and you guys have done an outstanding job. We’re getting a lot of thanks from people. Thank you guys all for sharing your life experiences. And I’m glad that you’re all having fun doing it and making a few bucks to boot. And filling the need. Because man, there is a need out there. We need you guys so much.

Don Harden:

I have one question Gene.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah, go.

Don Harden:

What address do we send our invoices to?

Gene Kelly:

That would be, do, do, do this number’s disconnected. All right guys. Anyway, thank you much.

David Phelps:

The one thing, remember Gene we were talking in the beginning, a frame and receiver that changes up for the ATF? If people want to do it, they can look on the ATF and the WebEx classes that they’re going to have, because they’re only a couple days away. The 14th and the 16th of June they’re going to do a two hour class on all these changes that they’re doing.

Gene Kelly:

Yeah, online. So I’ll be attending that myself. All right guys. Thank you again for your time. Goodnight everybody. And thanks for being a GCA member. Take care.

Randy Sherman:

All right. Good night.

Lorne Cooper:

Good night.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:45:09]